Curse

Chthon · Jul 16, 2009, 03:43 AM // 03:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by speedy21589

Let's put it this way...from what I've read, it seems Chthon is talking about average DPS, whereas traversc is talking about "instantaneous" DPS.

An analogy: speed. If we're driving from point A to point B, the average speed is total distance traveled divided by total time spent. The instantaneous speed at any point during this trip, however, could be anything. If for the whole trip we went 60 miles in 60 minutes, there's nothing to say that we didn't travel at a constant instantaneous speed of 3000 mph for 1 minute (that would be 50 miles traveled in that minute) and covered the last 10 miles over 59 minutes (essentially 10 mph for those 59 minutes).

What we're dealing with here is even more extreme than that. Let's drop AP for now for simplicity. I believe that Chthon is arguing that the damage MoP can do in its time up is limited by the life of adjacent foes. Dividing this maximum damage by the total recharge time of MoP gives the average DPS of one MoP. In other words, point A is when the first MoP is cast, and point B is when it has recharged.

However, all adjacent foes could be blown up in the first 2 seconds with enough triggers in those 2 seconds. That means that, in those first 2 seconds, MoP is doing a much higher instantaneous DPS than the average DPS done over the whole 21 seconds between point A and B, while over the rest of the time, the instantaneous DPS is 0. It would be like covering those 60 miles in the first 2 minutes and then sitting around for 58 minutes, then calling your average speed for the whole trip 60 mph. Not technically "wrong," because you are allowed to define an average that way...but does that number mean anything?

So I think the question is, is average DPS or instantaneous DPS a more useful measurement?

This is absolutely correct.

This is what I was referring to by "granularity."

Quote:

Originally Posted by bsjonson

An interesting point, which I think can be taken one logical step further...which is a more realistic example for actual gameplay?

This is also absolutely correct.

The answer here depends on (a) what mobs you're facing, (b) how much aggro you can handle at one time, and (c) what kind of tactics you're using. Prophecies-style "small mobs of meaningful foes" favor instantaneous DPS; Factions-style "large mobs of weak foes" favor average DPS. Homogeneous mobs favor instantaneous DPS (the AI makes them easy to bunch entirely); heterogeneous mobs favor average DPS. The more aggro your party handles at once, the more average DPS becomes important. Tank-n-spank tactics favor instantaneous DPS (since the fight is then over if you balled foes properly); anything else tends to favor average DPS.

There is something of a continuum from "average DPS" on the one hand to "how hard can you spike" on the other. "Instantaneous DPS" is kinda a bastardized thing occupying the middle space. For me, that's not much use. If I want to spike something, I'll spike it; otherwise I'm looking for what's going to get me from here to the end of the zone fastest. The concept that best reflects that is "average DPS."

From a mathematical standpoint, one way of looking at things is to say that the last recycle period of every fight gets cut short once the monsters are dead. That results in favorable DPS numbers for instantaneous DPS solutions, especially if you only look at one encounter. Once you start looking at a stream of encounters, it becomes dubious, even disingenuous, to discount the reminder of the recycle period because the monsters are dead. You could very well be pressing into the next mob before skills are recharged.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

So having 30 minions + casters with spears + evas's + your melee's will make very little difference to having 10 minions +casters with spears + evas's + your melee's.

As the Mop will proc enough to kill the mob before all 30 minions get a chance to hit! So overkill..

Yes. This was Improvatel's point.

Quote:

Hell it powerful enough to not need ANY minions to blow up a full group! just your caster spears + sins (+your phys if you bring any!) IF you play a mop nuker correctly.

Agreed.

Quote:

If you DONT play it right, minions will help, as your slacking on getting your procs and killing to slow.

More minions give you more room for error, people not following calls, stupid ai, the usual fail excuses, a big "trash wall" and the usual additional damage from the minions hitting what ever they hit.

Is this a dig at discordway?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You write that you have no hope to cast AP on someone near the MoP'ed target. Care to elaborate?

No time to cast AP. If you do it right, anything standing next to the MoP-ed target will be dead in under a second.

Quote:

I think average DPS is the only thing that matters. If you cannot keep up spike DPS, reporting that as your DPS is just wrong ... I can for example deal 1600 DPS as an Elementalist primary by hitting YMLAD! and Finish Him! within 0.1 seconds of each other, except it doesn't work that way right?

If you spam enough MoP's / Death Blossoms / Dragon Slashes and overload the mob in 10 seconds, then I'd say your average DPS is very high. It's not instantaneous DPS however. Unlike the above, you can keep up the damage, for as long as you need to.

I agree. Perhaps you said it better than me.

Malician · Jul 16, 2009, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

No time to cast AP. If you do it right, anything standing next to the MoP-ed target will be dead in under a second.

I think most people who haven't run MoP don't understand exactly how ridiculous the damage explosions it causes are. I had this happen on a recent Zaish Bounty with the remnants of a PUG after a party member left:

I cannot express the glee of seeing MoP explode on a mob (that's what, 2.5k damage with just a few minions, sin, and a ranger?) Nobody else but me had a physical weapon, and I was casting.

As I'm a necro newbie, I'm sure more experienced players have far better examples to show. When the physical hits smack poor Mr. Hexxed, everything next to him just disappears.

xDusT II · Jul 17, 2009, 05:41 PM // 17:41

@Malician

Those numbers were caused by the R/Rt's splinter barrage. Each hit of splinter weapon is counted as physical damage and hence triggers Mark of Pain's AoE effect.

the slasher · Jul 17, 2009, 10:49 PM // 22:49

anyhow, on my necro, i get about the same numbers, with an average team i made based on physical damage(i actually made it minion-free, exactly becasue of this post)

well, i cant say I get always the same numbers, sorry, but in general, if i pay attention and MoP a target in the middle of the enemie team... well, i cant say its still a team after, idk, 7 seconds? afte MoP instantaneous damage, all you need is your barrager to kill 6 targets in one hit... shouldnt be very hard... how do you think FoWsc manly spike works?

what is spot on? some 1 told me that (in this thread)

AtomicMew · Jul 18, 2009, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Spot on means I agreed with what you said.